Elevate with Grace

S1, Ep 8: Decision Making Tools to support Smart Risk Taking

• Elevate with Grace • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Welcome to Episode 8  &  the third in our series of Smart Risks.  In this episode we are exploring the all important tools to help you make better decisions.  Last week we explored some of the decision making biases, this week we paired your profile with some of the biases to watch out for and offer tools to overcome these biases.  In this Pod you will receive quick hacks, larger decision analysis systems and some watch outs for decisions making in teams.

ELEVATE CHALLENGE:
Take the 6Step/Decision tree model and use it to solve a decision you have been mulling over.  Try writing down as much as possible, sleeping on your initial thoughts, then going out and researching the alternatives and probabilities. If this model doesn't work for you try one of the other larger decision systems discussed the OOC/EMR Tony Robbins model, or the decision pre-mortem.

Annie Duke 6 Step decision tool: https://wisdomfromexperts.com/to-make-a-good-decision-you-must-use-a-decision-tree-with-probabilities/

Tony Robbins OOC/EMR: https://www.tonyrobbins.com/ask-tony/making-tough-decisions/

Risk Profile Survey: https://www.elevatewithgrace.com.au/post/risk_profile_survey

SHOW NOTES
Collective thought leaders on the topic of decision making
Seth Godin, The Dip
Annie Duke, How to Decide
Mike Bayer, One Decision
Tony Robbins
Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast & Slow
Emma Isaacs, Winging It
Michelle Gibbings, Executive Coach & Author

Articles:
9 Steps of decision making: http://www.success.com
Fast Company: https://www.fastcompany.com/90613220/12-ways-to-overcome-bias-and-strengthen-decision-making-skills
HBR Psychological Safety at work: https://hbr.org/2021/06/4-steps-to-boost-psychological-safety-at-your-workplace

If you could like a free month of linked in learning: https://linkedin-learning.pxf.io/Elevate
If you are keen to check out any of the books we spoke about today:  http://www.booktopia.kh4ffx.net/Elevate

**This post contains affiliate links and I will be compensated if you make a purchase after clicking on my links.

Music created by Claire's daughter Hannah

Miranda:

Welcome to the Elevate with Grace podcast. For women who are short on time and long to take steps to create success on their own terms. Our aim is to curate and share the best tips, insights, and knowledge from all of the content out there, and then take the brain strain out of it, like giving you the so what and some immediate actionable steps for you to seamlessly slot into your life each week that will help propel you from where you are to where you want to be. In each episode, we take a look at one of the pillars of our Elevate with Grace success on your own terms" Model, where we explore smart, risk-taking cultivating our careers and fueling your financial power. These three elements work together even better when we look at them within the broader context of the big picture aspirations we have for the life that we want while also paying attention to not letting that stuff that might be holding us back get in our way.

Claire:

Hello there everyone. It's Claire here and with me as always is the fabulously energetic Miranda. We are both pumped and raring to go for extending our conversation from our pod last week. Where last week we talked about quality decision-making as something that will help us embrace more risk taking. This week we're going to shake down some decision-making tools that you can tap into when you want to be more confident about taking a risk. We'll be looking at quick decision-making tools and then also some more complex techniques to help you assess decisions. As always we'll finish up with our action challenge for this week. Before we launch into the tools and techniques. I must say a quick, Hey, how you doing to my partner in crime. Hey, my friend how's tricks this week? And how did you go with the action challenge from last week on coming up with the decision you need to make in your life right now that you want to feel confident about deciding what you should do?

Miranda:

Well, look, I want to say that I am doing great. I think we always want to hear that when people ask how we are. However, in true authentic spirit, I feel a little more like a bond martini not to drink, but actually personally. Shaken instead of stirred. Some difficult conversations I took on this week, left me a bit shaking and on reflection I recognize it's actually that person's style was to attack when they didn't like what I was saying. So I think these moments are relatively rare. I've definitely gained some insights and knowledge from stepping up to the plate. It does leave you shaken for a day or two. But this, with some unplanned days of also balancing a two year old. Uh, can't wait for lockdown to end and childcare to open again. You know just puts you out of balance a little bit,. But I am excited to be here and having this conversation with you. And, yeah, I think just excited from the learnings I've been able to gain from the week and go, yep all right. Bring it on. With regards to the action challenge, a relatively easy one for this week. Just getting that decision really clear, writing down some thoughts around it and super ready to apply some hacks and move my thoughts into action. And take back that control. Claire, how are you doing? How was your week and how was the challenge?

Claire:

I'm sorry to hear that. We're in such a tricky place at the moment. I've had a good week. I've had a really good week actually, and very much excited for Melbourne to be opening back up again. That really changed my mood a lot. I must admit. But I've also overheard a couple of quite intense altercations. And I think we just all really need to try and be kind at the moment and also, not take too much too seriously, or just shake it off really quickly, I suppose. But as usual, you're always looking at the positive side of all of that and moving on, so that's really awesome. With the decisions, coming out of lockdown and after the last 18 months that we've had, I definitely need to have a think about some choices that I need to make holistically for myself and my family and my work, so I'm looking forward to using a couple of those against the content that we're talking about today. Cause I know after preparing for the podcast that I need to do a little bit more in terms of better, more conscious decision-making it'll be fun.

Miranda:

In last week's chat we geeked out a little on decision-making biases and exactly what you're saying there, Claire, I really do find these so interesting. And hopefully, they take away the mystery on how some people seem to thrive, perhaps with overconfidence and others are being held back. Some seem crazy unlucky with the decisions they make. And when you step back and understand the decision-making process. and decision-making biases. You can say that people use the same repeating loop over and over again, even if it's not the same decision, it's making those similar mistakes. So Being able to understand your risk profile. If you haven't completed the survey yet, I really do urge you to check that out. I know you have Claire. Knowing that risk profile and then going into what those biases are that maybe set you up there. So when you complete the risk profile, we shoot you out this bit of a guide on what that means some of the biases that you should look out for. For example, if you score a one to two, you're more of a risk mitigator, your comfort zone is very much on the safe edge then, I think being willing to lean in and to use some of the decision-making hacks that we're going to speak to you today to give you super confidence around the, planning that you put into your decision making process is going to be a huge help. If you're a two to three, operational risks can be more comfortable. Things like the sunk cost bias that we spoke about last week could be something that's holding you back. As a moderate risk taker, you might be more comfortable with operational and improvisational risks and that's where hindsight bias and relating could actually hold you back from seeking some bigger decisions because something happened that didn't quite work out last time so you sort of, I don't want to put myself out there again, that's not going to pay off. Making sure that you're not holding yourself back from that next opportunity by thinking about that risk takers and alternate risk takers, brain's probably not wired for routine and they tend to leap before giving opportunities enough thoughts. So we spoke a little bit last week about cognitive biases and how important it was to really understand that your gut instinct or your intuition can sometimes be a little bit faulty. So we've got some great hacks here on how to help to overcome some of that cognitive bias and to make sure that, you can know in yourself that you're making right decisions. I think a great point for us to remember in all of these is that we can build our decision-making muscles. I'm not just born with one type of DNA and that's our lot in life. A great quote from Annie Duke. I'm going to talk about her a bit today. is that calculated risk requires tools, skills and knowledge not to be confused with a reckless gamble, smart risk-takers learn quickly to calculate the gain loss ratio and walk away when the math isn't in their favor.

Claire:

When you were talking about the different profiles of risk-takers on the continuum, it got me thinking about a couple of articles I've read this week about how our biases can impact how effective our decisions are in a virtual or hybrid workplace. I think having an awareness of where you and also your colleagues sit on the risk continuum can be helpful in these situations. For example, Harvard business school wrote an article in April this year about what psychological safety looks like in a hybrid workplace. Psychological safety is believing that you can speak up freely without worrying that you might be punished or humiliated for doing so. According to the article, it's well-established that psychological safety is a critical driver of high quality decision-making in organizations. In the last couple of years, as we all know the boundaries between work and life for the majority of us have become a lot more blurry. So having psychologically safe discussions around personal issues and how it impacts the work to be done is challenging because it's more likely to touch on some deep seated aspects of people's identity, values and choices. and from the different risk personalities that you were just speaking to Miranda, I'm wondering if decisions in the workplace may be swayed more to what the risk taker personalities in the team think and believe because they're more likely to speak up and speak up quickly and be more confident. Some actions to address psychological safety in a hybrid workspace. So that better quality decisions can be made. First is there needs to be an environment where the team is able to have candid discussions about the full range of challenges people are experiencing in their whole of life while also addressing the work that needs to be done and decided on and delivered. This helps have shared ownership where everyone in the team feel that they need to play a creative and responsible role in helping decide on the best course of action to get the work delivered. While now accomodating all of the different personal needs that everyone in the team has. Also being hyper-aware about, who's not speaking up in these discussions is really important. Decision-making could end up being skewed to the views of the people that have the strongest voices and so it's really important for us all to be hyper diligent about which of our colleagues are not contributing to the conversation and thinking about ways that we can make sure that their perspectives and thoughts are included because it's so important to get that balanced decision. They also recommend starting small and taking baby steps. So after we've gone from one type of work culture to a very different type of work culture, and most people might not immediately want to bear their most risky challenges on the table personally straightaway to everybody. And so starting by making small disclosures before tackling the more complex issues and decisions. There's a nother article about similar type of thing around five biases that might be ruining your hybrid meetings by Fast Company. Those biases also talked to decision-making biases that we were talking about last week. And I just want to bring up a couple of them here, but it's worth checking out the article. One is termed the bike shedding effect. Which is our tendency as groups and teams to give a disproportionate amount of attention to trivial issues i.e. What color should we paint the bike shed and postpone or avoid the topics that require more complex or meaningful debate. It's important to send the detailed agenda out in advance of the meetings so everyone knows that they're expecting some complex discussions to take place and that they have time to think about their perspective. The other one I wanted to call out is expedience bias. We often have a preference for quick decisions and actions rather than taking the time to get more clarity and understand. I think we all have that. If you remember from last week's pod in the book, thinking fast and slow, it's the system one thinking our brains want to use the most because it drains less of our cognitive efforts. But Equally, if you've got the risk takers in the room or the virtual room that are. Putting forward their views quickly, it can skew the decisions that get made in the organization the general message is much more preparedness going into those meetings. Whoops, I've dived right in with some quick to implement tools for teams to use to improve the quality of collective decision-making. Miranda, have you got any quick decision-making tools that we can use for our own individual decision-making?

Miranda:

Claire. I love that you brought up the thinking fast and slow book because I've been reflecting on that one. And while system one is definitely an expedient measure. I think there's some. within that system one where we can give ourselves a leave pass. So Annie Duke calls this free rolls, where you mentally take the stress out of decisions that don't matter. You've got to have that discipline. It doesn't matter. So whatever you grab out of the cupboards to wear, whatever you throw on the plate to eat, whichever way you drive to work, they're the type of things that you can do as a free role. Heard people agonize I took the wrong route and it took so much longer or it took me half an hour to get dressed this morning. You've got to really have that discipline to go. This is a free role. It doesn't matter. I need to focus my mental load for the key decisions that matter. When you do get to some of those key decisions, there's actually a great tool called decision stacking that seeks to take the risk out of the decisions, by finding ways to make the low impact, easy to quit decisions that will help inform your high high-impact harder to quit decisions. Beta testing is a great example of decision stacking. I think decision stacking, is a great way to start to build your muscles. one of the steps we're going into bit later is taking on and trying to make some difficult decisions regularly over the next couple of months, while you're trying to build this muscle. And so if you do a bit of a test, but don't commit sometimes this can be a great way. So it might be actually just having that difficult conversation without making the decision. In a way, building enough information that when you come to make a really difficult decision, you've got all your facts. Beta testing and lets you gather that valuable information, it's going to help inform those high impact choices. Even if the test goes poorly. Well, actually you've learned a lot from that. So that's a win.

Claire:

I must admit you've, we'll come on to a bit later but you've got to be totally fan girling over Annie Duke now as well. I found that article as I'm talking it's about articles, but I promise I'll get on to other mediums of content later on, I found an article called nine tips for making smart decisions fast. And it would actually really quite compliment the free rolling technique that you've mentioned from Annie Duke's quite nicely. Tip five is about clarifying in your mind whether the decision can be reversed and I reckon that can help to get a bit better at free rolling like a divot. Doesn't that? Can I take it back? If I'm agonizing over, whether the buy something can I return That sort of stuff. A couple of other tips that could help build those free rolling muscles as well end decision stacking thing is to have a daily decision quoter. And so you, there's only so many decisions you're going to make in a day and also to put in place habits that minimize decision fatigue. The Steve jobs, black polo phenomenon that everyone always talks about, whatever your version of that is. Wearing your active way to bed anyone I went to a kid's bookshop today to pick up a birthday present. And I was telling the lady at the bookstore at the counter outside the store that I even in COVID, I have not been able to embrace online shopping because it requires me to make a decision about a present four weeks in advance. And I just can't do that, but it has to be last minute where I'm forced to choose something. It's about working out how you can be aware of minimizing the cognitive load on those basic system one decisions the final tip in that article is about embracing uncertainty. I want to come back to that one a bit later in the podcast, because it's a critical concept in terms of making decisions for yourself.

Miranda:

And a big one for right now, I imagine. For many of us, like the simplest solution is always the best. There is some more complex decision-making hacks as we go through. One simple thing is really just to understand what your worst case and best case scenario could be. Even in uncertainty, it can be as simple as what is the best outcome that can come out of making this decision and what is the worst. In many cases, we focus so hard on the worst and we forget to really consider the best. it's back to that sort of calculated risk idea. Know what your win loss ratio is because so often we're leaving a whole lot of weight on the table because we're worried about getting a bit of sauce on our face.

Claire:

In the thinking fast and slow book, they talk about a loss aversion bias. And actually we do worry about loss more than we think about the wins. Knowing that it's normal to think that way, that's, going to be your tendency and that you need to be aware of and go, well, what's the best thing that can happen what's the worst thing that can happen, is great advice.

Miranda:

Consistent across all of the thought leaders that I was checking out. Practice with little decisions and make a commitment within the next month or two months to really consider making active decisions on a regular basis. Visualize or live the decision in your head. Imagine that you made that decision, what does that look like? Where's that going to take you? Brainstorming or brainwriting the outcomes. Trying to get down, all of the different outcomes that could, come out of this. That's really helpful for a bigger tip later on. Ask for feedback with a mentor or a considered group. Making sure that you've got people within your work environment or within your field of expertise that you can really lean on for advice. That was a big one that kept showing up and just build that network. We're really not one for Visualize your future and the universe will provide. I do believe that, positive mindset is important, but a thorough review of what can go wrong is really essential. One of the other tips on that is this idea of a decision pre motion. You've probably conducted postmortems of projects in the past. This one's similar, but you can imagine what it will look like if you don't succeed and put some steps in place to avoid these. Sports coaches would do this before heading into a big game. And it makes sense for us to do it too. An Annie Duke, example was I studied where they, had a whole heap of people who visualized achieving a weight loss goal, visualized it and imagined that were already there. And then set up to go and achieve that versus those who visualized failure and understanding what got in their way. Those that visualized failing actually achieved 26 more pounds in weight loss, which is incredible because if you think about it, if you've already planned this thing's going to come up and I'm going to feel sad for myself and I'm going to go into a chocolate bar. Then you can put steps in place to make sure there is no chocolate bottles and that you've got something else to fill that gap or that void if you're an emotional eater. I've always approached the life from almost too positive mindset. But I remember at GM insisting before big projects, what was going to go wrong session before the final pH or before heading into production on product. And sometimes it seems a little extreme, but I really loved it because it helped catch problems before they ever arose. A very 360 approach to decision-making.

Claire:

I've used premortems a bit in, in business as well. I think there is so much richness that we just don't do. And probably it's getting more and more the case where we're not doing that rigorous, upfront planning, about getting clear on the different scenarios. What does failure look like? What does success look like and how bad is failure? What's the worst that's going to happen if I take that job and it's a complete disaster or what's the worst that's going to happen if I. release podcast and no one listens to it. oh, that's about me. Sorry. At the end of Seth Godin's short LinkedIn learning course that we talked about in last week's pod about making better decisions together, which are highly recommended. And he's very engaging. At the end, as you spoke about, there's a 15 minute interview between Seth and Annie Duke. A part of that interview is talking about quitting smart. And when is the right time to quit. Annie calls out that sticking to things, having grit and perseverance is seen as a virtue and quitting is seen as a vice. She says that it actually should be viewed in almost the opposite light that we don't quit enough when we should be quitting. Because there's all this cognitive behavioral, emotional debris that interferes with our ability to know when to quit. And she talks about that in the context of doing the pre-mortems, because she says that if you quit on time, it will feel like you quit too early. as humans, we don't like uncertainty. We want certainty. We want to know what the outcome's going to be. And so the point that if you quit on time, it will feel too early is because we have a strong desire to know what the end of the story will be. what if I worked more with that employee on their performance? What if I did more marriage counseling? What if I just try and one more company in these type of work? As Seth highlights, life is a long haul journey. We're at this for decades and decades and decades. And so knowing when to walk away is a skill that we need to get much better at and thinking about that is a really good strategy for you to make strategic decisions about stick or quit. Seth has written a book about quitting called The Dip. Knowing when to quit and when to stick, it's a short book. It's less than 300 pages. The what you will learn. Podcasts has an episode covering the key points from the dip. The premise of the book. Is there anything you do in life has three different curves that leads to three different outcomes. The first one is the cul-de-sac where you work and work and work, and nothing changes. It doesn't get much worse or it doesn't get much better. You just sort of plot along. In a cul-de-sac situation, increased effort does not lead to increased rewards. The second scenario is the cliff where you're steadily keeping going up and up and up, and you're quite happy that you're going up, but then seemingly unaware you suddenly fall right off a cliff And then there's the third one is the dip. And this is the one that we should all be aiming to be. In the D you are fueled by good wins early, you're getting lots of good feedback and lots of little signals that are keeping you going. And then there is this point where it gets hard and the deep is that flat, boring, and long slog that's in the middle. And the dip is when most people quit. But for those that persevere through the dip, then they will get to this big exponential success part that's right at the end of the curve. And so it's when you're in the dip that you really need to be paying attention to your decision-making because it's where you need to be figuring out whether your, in the dip and exponential successes at the end, or whether you're sitting in a col-de-sac or you're heading towards a cliff. The decision-making strategy in the book is that you need. To quit the cliffs and the cul de sacs, because all the effort and time and money that you're putting into them are taking away from the effort that you should be putting into your dips. It's about strategic quitting. You need to work out and I mean, million dollars for how you work this out, because none of us have. 2020 hindsight. That's where decision-making tools come in. Right? Because you need to look out if you're in a dip and distinguish it from heading off a cliff or being in a cul-de-sac. That's linked to Annie Duke's pre-mortem technique, because as part of that, you should be planning out in advance the parameters for yourself that when they come up, they will signal to you that that's time to quit. So you should have some things in advance as you're planning to say, right, is this, this or this happens, then that needs to be a red flag to me that I should be thinking about.

Miranda:

I really like it. There's a another one, that Annie Duke has for this type of scenario, she calls it a six step process. A bit more like a decision tree, I've used decision trees in the business world, but in this instance where you're talking, a decision tree would be fantastic for deciding to take on a new job. Also fascinated by these cul-de-sacs and cliffs. Because if you could do the work to try and find out where you're at. And then a decision tree is going to help you explore the options, what it could look like if you did, and didn't take the job decision trees, then take it further to going okay. If you perform well, and love the team, that might be one scenario, but what if you perform well, but the team doesn't like you. What does that look like? What kept, another scenario where if you perform poorly, what does that mean? And apply percentages to each of the different options. So you get this tree of, this is my decision. These are some of the scenarios that could happen. This is the likelihood of that happening. And then you go out and do some research. To try and find out that percentage of what that likelihood is. In this instance, if you're looking for a job, then you might go and have a look on LinkedIn to see what the turnover rate is. Or you might follow a couple of people from that organization, maybe even reach out to have a conversation with one or two, just to make sure that it is the right fit for you. Doing that background work, doing some research into the history of the company and find out. Gaining as much information as you can. Then you've got this really cool, smart decision-making tool, which is going to help you set up for multiple outcomes, you know, you've researched those outcomes and then hopefully you're going to feel very confident, but it is actually also going to stop the cognitive bias issues. It's going to stop the hindsight bias and the relating, because you're doing a lot of that work upfront. You are going to be using that brain writing or the brainstorms to try and answer what the parameters are. You're going to be using a little bit of the pre-mortems cause you're trying to think of all the things that can go wrong and you formalizing it down on a bit of paper. I really like this tool. It's a much better way than a pro con list. Much more three-dimensional. and again, this one's from Annie Duke, so she's got an interesting perspective. Claire? Do you remember decision trees? Have you ever thought of applying them to your personal life or your personal decisions?

Claire:

do you remember them? I think it can give you a lot of confidence because we're so afraid of failure. Like we're so afraid of the losses, right? So I think if you put them down on paper at the very beginning, they then may eventually wait. They may not. But knowing that they're there and making the decision about how comfortable you are with those scenarios playing out. You can take a lot of stress and mental load out about them. I don't think I've actually used one since we're at business, it's so hard because we're so pressed for time and we really do need. Space and time and writing. It can't just be in your head. That's the key thing as well, you need to get some of this stuff out. So on that the iconic Tony Robbins has got a, making tough decisions article on his website, and it's a six step process that he calls OOC/EMR not very easy acronym to stay in, stands for outcomes, options, consequences, evaluate, mitigate, resolve. It gives you that steps and technique. But what he also has is a section at the end about addressing your fear of making tough decisions. It gets you to reflect on well, what's causing your fear and ask yourself things like. Who am I really doing this for? What will I regret the most? If I do whatever I don't do it and that sort of stuff. It's skewing our decision. That's not cost bias and looking at it from using the, any duke six step method or a decision tree. There's a lot of good stuff, that can come from us doing this. More. The tricky is like, we always talk about on this podcast is even a little bit you don't have to sit down tomorrow and clear your day with massive decision trees and big white boards in your house. That's not going to be practical, just having those thought bubbles in the back of your mind, that this is some things that you really should think about as you're thinking about a new job or. How can I take out some of that cognitive load? Because I could just have the same thing for breakfast and just being aware that there's a lot of stuff that you can do to make that cognitive exercise easier. And then it will help you be braver and take bigger risks, which is what we need to get a life of success in their own terms, yeah?

Miranda:

Absolutely. Some seriously good hacks there. I hope that all of our listeners are really enjoyed, going through a bit more of a deeper understanding of how these biases could impact your decision making, particularly depending on what your risk profile is. Some quick hacks and some simple. To help you make some of those quicker decisions. Some more recommendations on those free rolls or how to deal with some of those system one thinking and so more complex tools for those bigger decisions. Loved the idea of those dips, cliffs and cul de sacs. So I think, that'd be a fun one to apply the decision tree, the post-mortem and also this tiny Robbins model. I've got to look that one up again at O O C E M. Uh, we'll have to put that link in the show notes just so you'd have to write it down. All right. So that brings us to the end of this podcast. I think that we are going to have to do an action challenge where we really dive into taking that decision that you thought about last week and trying to use one of these models, whether it's the decision tree model or it's one of the other models that we spoke about today and thinking about the biases that you naturally would take to this decision. Making sure that you've written them down so you can very much articulate what that risk is and then trying those decision matrixes to see how you'd go and how you can form that decision. Give yourself a little bit of time to really not out, to brainstorm on paper rain, right? To do a little bit of research online, to try to help you form your decision. Sleep on it overnight and then pick it up the next day and have a good, have a look and see what that looks like for you. We can definitely promise that whatever that decision is that you make at least you'll know that you're going into it eyes wide open. We'll put the decision tree matrix in the show notes and I hope you really enjoyed it.

Claire:

It's about practical application. So I think that's a great action for us to explore some of the techniques that we've talked about and see how we can pick a couple of them up with a decision tree. One in terms of making some decisions as we spoke about last week. Yeah, there's a lot of people are thinking about what they want their life to look like post COVID in terms of work in terms of whole of life. And so I feel like this is quite a topical time to be providing some extra techniques, tools, tips, to use to really, get that stuff happening for yourself in a way that you feel more comfortable and brave to take the risks that you need to take. Before we finished as a completely random side note. If you want to see decision-making and risk-taking playing out to the extreme, I can recommend the Korean show Squid Game. That's on Netflix at the moment. It is decision making and risk-taking on steroids. Different. I have two more episodes to go, which we'll probably watch out after these podcast. Although I do have to say, uh, viewer discretion is strongly, strongly advised. Honestly, it's actually quite a serious announcement. It has an intense amount of blood and gore in it. It is go pawn to the extreme. So if you find with that, it's a, it's an excellent show. I can highly recommend it. It's crazy. In our next episode, we're going to be doing our second book review. I'm so excited. As, as I know you will be. Miranda is because we do love a good book review. We will be reviewing winging it by Emma Iasaacs. Which is about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, talking about a lot of the stuff that they're talking about in the last few weeks, try things before you're ready, less second guessing yourself. It's about getting your confidence up to take smarter breadth of risks that will help you propel you forward faster to having the life you want on your terms. Emma has just released another book called the new hustle, which we'll weave into our book. Review it a little bit next week as well. As always, please be sure to visit our Insta posts for bite-size. Inspiration to please email us@elevatewithgraceatgmail.com. With any feedback forwards or suggestions we would love to hear from you. And if you're interested in any of the book titles that we've discussed or in checking out LinkedIn learning, there are some links to them in our show notes and on our website, www.elevatewithgrace.com to you. we would be super grateful if you would use those links. And that pretty much brings us to the end of the pot episode. Thank you listeners. Thank you Miranda also, great conversation again,

Miranda:

so much fun. Thank you, Claire. Thank you, listeners. And I look forward to doing it next time,

Claire:

See you next time